Short Course: The Return
11/05/2018 10:03:22 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 190
@shortcourse [url=https://fl.milesplit.com/videos/311162]https://fl.milesplit.com/videos/311162[/url]
11/05/2018 10:27:00 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 28
It will be sorted out next week at states. Yea it sucks for the rankings, but does it? We will see in a week. Cool weather + taper + Net Downhill on the course COULD lead to those average of 40 second PR @milesb4fast mentioned (haven’t done the average myself). 5 more days until everything is sorted out. Good luck to all and safe travels. It’s gonna be fun!
It will be sorted out next week at states. Yea it sucks for the rankings, but does it? We will see in a week. Cool weather + taper + Net Downhill on the course COULD lead to those average of 40 second PR @milesb4fast mentioned (haven't done the average myself). 5 more days until everything is sorted out.

Good luck to all and safe travels. It's gonna be fun!
11/05/2018 10:39:17 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 190
@Miles4Bfast @5krunner136 @shortcourse I did not say anything regarding course length. Please don't put words in my mouth/message. All I did was post the video of the coach who laid out the course and his description of how it was laid out. So do you not think that Charles Hicks can run a 14:53 when he ran a 14:59 in Cary at Great American?
@Miles4Bfast @5krunner136 @shortcourse I did not say anything regarding course length. Please don't put words in my mouth/message. All I did was post the video of the coach who laid out the course and his description of how it was laid out.

So do you not think that Charles Hicks can run a 14:53 when he ran a 14:59 in Cary at Great American?
11/05/2018 10:46:13 AM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 147
Actually, the Region 1 course was long. Anticipating today's angst, noted physicist Dr. Elrod von Schmelzberg, collaborated with well known physiologist, Dr. Evan Williams, to investigate the course! Using satellite imagery, and soil and water samples, the two distinguished scientists discovered a previously undiscovered terrain anomaly, known in the scientific world as "Downhillism." The imagery showed that between the start and the finish, there was an elevation drop of 782 feet. The impact of this drop, though was only partially responsible for the seemingly incredible times! After taking samples from the water table, and the Perrier sold on site, it was concluded that the area has a 42% concentration of EPO, both in the ground water, and also via diffusion, in bottled water sold on the premises. After sorting through a number of algorithms dealing with both concerns, it was concluded, that in reality, the course was long by 72 meters. Drs. von Schmelzberg and Williams hope that their research has shed some light on this life and death concern!
Actually, the Region 1 course was long.
Anticipating today's angst, noted physicist Dr. Elrod von Schmelzberg, collaborated with well known physiologist, Dr. Evan Williams, to investigate the course!

Using satellite imagery, and soil and water samples, the two distinguished scientists discovered a previously undiscovered terrain anomaly, known in the scientific world as "Downhillism."

The imagery showed that between the start and the finish, there was an elevation drop of 782 feet. The impact of this drop, though was only partially responsible for the seemingly incredible times!

After taking samples from the water table, and the Perrier sold on site, it was concluded that the area has a 42% concentration of EPO, both in the ground water, and also via diffusion, in bottled water sold on the premises.

After sorting through a number of algorithms dealing with both concerns, it was concluded, that in reality, the course was long by 72 meters.
Drs. von Schmelzberg and Williams hope that their research has shed some light on this life and death concern!
11/05/2018 11:01:59 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 155
@Miles4Bfast wolfpack was just being light-hearted, heated discussion sometimes require the wisdom of lightness, so the board does not devolve. people are heated on this topic.i read wolfpacks comments as means of tempering heat, nothing more.
@Miles4Bfast

wolfpack was just being light-hearted, heated discussion sometimes require the wisdom of lightness, so the board does not devolve. people are heated on this topic.i read wolfpacks comments as means of tempering heat, nothing more.
11/05/2018 11:04:31 AM
Admin
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1184
@5krunner136 and @Miles4Bfast You are both trolls (either the same person or two people sitting next to each other posting from the same location). How about contact the meet host and/or go out to the course and meausre it yourself?
@5krunner136 and @Miles4Bfast You are both trolls (either the same person or two people sitting next to each other posting from the same location). How about contact the meet host and/or go out to the course and meausre it yourself?
11/05/2018 11:05:28 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 53
Rankings can't/shouldn't be based on times. It's about who you beat on a given day in a given meet. How do you think College Football manages to do it? Races sort things out quite nicely. So much wasted time on this debate.
Rankings can't/shouldn't be based on times. It's about who you beat on a given day in a given meet. How do you think College Football manages to do it?

Races sort things out quite nicely. So much wasted time on this debate.
11/05/2018 11:19:53 AM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 147
I must apologize, there was a third researcher that I forgot to mention. Dr. Goethe von Troll who handled all the intricate communications between those on the ground at New World, and those at research headquarters at the FBI lab at Quantico!
I must apologize, there was a third researcher that I forgot to mention.
Dr. Goethe von Troll who handled all the intricate communications between those on the ground at New World, and those at research headquarters at the FBI lab at Quantico!
11/05/2018 12:27:57 PM
Admin
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1184
@5krunner136 Then why do you have 2 profiles and respond to the other like it is a different person? You are trolling. Post your name if you are not. Contact Richard Fannin and question him, it is his course. I am sure he would be happy to explain to you how he measured the course. I'll buy lunch and meet you there myself if you want to measure it. I'll admit I am skeptical and would have measured it myself if I didn't have athletes waiting on me to get home. However, I trust him and his explanation has not changed over the multiple times the course has been run. There were factors that morning that most teams from that region did not expeirence all year. And any coach that has been around for a long time will agree having cooler weather and the intensity of the meet added on top of a nearly perfect terrain will result in fast times. People can debate variables all day long, but the only way to settle the argument is to measure the course yourself.
@5krunner136 Then why do you have 2 profiles and respond to the other like it is a different person? You are trolling. Post your name if you are not.

Contact Richard Fannin and question him, it is his course. I am sure he would be happy to explain to you how he measured the course. I'll buy lunch and meet you there myself if you want to measure it. I'll admit I am skeptical and would have measured it myself if I didn't have athletes waiting on me to get home. However, I trust him and his explanation has not changed over the multiple times the course has been run. There were factors that morning that most teams from that region did not expeirence all year. And any coach that has been around for a long time will agree having cooler weather and the intensity of the meet added on top of a nearly perfect terrain will result in fast times. People can debate variables all day long, but the only way to settle the argument is to measure the course yourself.
11/05/2018 12:33:56 PM
Power User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 125
[quote=5krunner136]@nickpohl . . . also short courses makes the recruitment process way more of a hassle because coaches now need to determine if the course was a legitimate 5k or not. [/quote] Regardless of whether Region 1 course was short, long, or accurate, no coach that I know of is basing his or her recruitment of an athlete based off one cross country race . . . coaches look first (and almost always) at track times and the only cross country results they will take into account are head to head competition at the state meet or other big cross country events like Nike, Great American, etc . .
5krunner136 wrote:
@nickpohl
. . . also short courses makes the recruitment process way more of a hassle because coaches now need to determine if the course was a legitimate 5k or not.


Regardless of whether Region 1 course was short, long, or accurate, no coach that I know of is basing his or her recruitment of an athlete based off one cross country race . . . coaches look first (and almost always) at track times and the only cross country results they will take into account are head to head competition at the state meet or other big cross country events like Nike, Great American, etc . .
11/05/2018 12:38:13 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Here is map of course. After taking this, we measured it with a tape (twice) .. has also been wheeled and “Garmined” many, many times as back-up.... I spent 9 years measuring courses with USATF officials and IAAF certified measurement officials at US National Championship races .. our course was measured with the same standards and cate .. it is very fast .. but not short. No one accuses our races in August of being short when run in 80 degree weather and no one PRs. [url=http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117]http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117[/url]
Here is map of course.
After taking this, we measured it with a tape (twice) .. has also been wheeled and "Garmined" many, many times as back-up.... I spent 9 years measuring courses with USATF officials and IAAF certified measurement officials at US National Championship races .. our course was measured with the same standards and cate .. it is very fast .. but not short. No one accuses our races in August of being short when run in 80 degree weather and no one PRs.

http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117
11/05/2018 12:39:34 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 429
@5krunner136 Do long courses ruin the rankings? Do long courses force college coaches to do their due diligence? I never see anyone complaining about "long" courses....
@5krunner136

Do long courses ruin the rankings? Do long courses force college coaches to do their due diligence? I never see anyone complaining about "long" courses....
11/05/2018 12:45:58 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 429
@shortcourse You say...."let's face the facts." Can you share with everyone those facts. By the way...facts are backed by research, so tell us about your factual findings. You claim "the course was extremely short." How "short" is the course? Can you clarify for us the difference between "short" and "extremely short?" #Idon'treallycare
@shortcourse

You say...."let's face the facts." Can you share with everyone those facts. By the way...facts are backed by research, so tell us about your factual findings. You claim "the course was extremely short." How "short" is the course? Can you clarify for us the difference between "short" and "extremely short?"

#Idon'treallycare
11/05/2018 1:00:55 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
@5krunner136 and @Miles4Bfast Well, I am now convinced that this course must have been also very short at FHSAA 3A Region 1 Nov 8, 2014 Sunnyhill Farms Tallahassee, FL! Therefore, Sukhi Khosla's time of 14:52.60 and then 14:56 at Nike regional were both on 3 mile courses. By the way, he also did not have any competition at Region 1 3 mile course because his team mate ran 15:23. Oh yeah, my runner who was 7th in 15:37 PR by 45 seconds! No way possible that he was trained to peak at the right time and raced that morning at close to perfect conditions and near perfect footing!
@5krunner136 and @Miles4Bfast Well, I am now convinced that this course must have been also very short at FHSAA 3A Region 1 Nov 8, 2014 Sunnyhill Farms Tallahassee, FL! Therefore, Sukhi Khosla's time of 14:52.60 and then 14:56 at Nike regional were both on 3 mile courses. By the way, he also did not have any competition at Region 1 3 mile course because his team mate ran 15:23. Oh yeah, my runner who was 7th in 15:37 PR by 45 seconds! No way possible that he was trained to peak at the right time and raced that morning at close to perfect conditions and near perfect footing!
11/05/2018 1:33:50 PM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 147
College coaches do not recruit off of cross Country "times," as has been stated in this forum many times before. Recruiting is based on who beats whom in the state meet, and most importantly what times are run during track season!
College coaches do not recruit off of cross Country "times," as has been stated in this forum many times before. Recruiting is based on who beats whom in the state meet, and most importantly what times are run during track season!
11/05/2018 1:38:13 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 429
@5krunner136 The default to a long or short course is not 3 miles or 5K. If the long course is 80m long, then it should be posted as 5080m. If a short course is 453m short, then it should be posted as 4547m. Whatever the distance is, that is what should be posted. Those people who are die-hard poll fans, maybe the polls can post actual AND 5K converted times. Such as: If a course is 80m short and an athlete runs 18:00 on it, then a program can be written to extrapolate the 5K time....which is 18:17.56 So, the polls will have the athletes actual time of 18:00 (4920m) and the extrapolated time of 18:17.56. The poll will rank the athlete based on the extrapolated 5K time on short/long courses. This can be done for short and long courses. Even though this will equalize distances, it will do nothing about course difficulty (Hilly, sandy, soft, etc). Hmmmmmmm......
@5krunner136

The default to a long or short course is not 3 miles or 5K. If the long course is 80m long, then it should be posted as 5080m. If a short course is 453m short, then it should be posted as 4547m. Whatever the distance is, that is what should be posted.

Those people who are die-hard poll fans, maybe the polls can post actual AND 5K converted times.

Such as: If a course is 80m short and an athlete runs 18:00 on it, then a program can be written to extrapolate the 5K time....which is 18:17.56

So, the polls will have the athletes actual time of 18:00 (4920m) and the extrapolated time of 18:17.56. The poll will rank the athlete based on the extrapolated 5K time on short/long courses.

This can be done for short and long courses. Even though this will equalize distances, it will do nothing about course difficulty (Hilly, sandy, soft, etc).

Hmmmmmmm......
11/05/2018 1:46:22 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 429
@shortcourse We'd have to rely on the meet director to know how to correctly wheel/measure a course and be honest in posting whatever the course length ends up being.
@shortcourse

We'd have to rely on the meet director to know how to correctly wheel/measure a course and be honest in posting whatever the course length ends up being.
11/05/2018 2:19:27 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Here is the map .. [url=http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117]http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117[/url] Where is this crazy, egregious error ? Let’s grow the grass up 6 inches, add a lot of sand (like most courses we ran all season) and change the temp from 50 to 80 (and humidity from 90% to 60%) and run the same course and see how many PRs there are. Probably none. Smooth terrain and cold weather is rocket fuel to XC times in FL. (As golf course meets are as rare as the Loch Beas monster) Look how fast kids run at Apalachee WITH 2 hills ... New World is essentially Apalachee with no hills .. if they took out the 2 hills next weekend and it was 48 degrees do you think almost everyone would have big PRs ? The the answer is yes. But back to the map .. there it is .. zoom in .. although the online is just a template for us(we use the steel tape as the de facto) I have found the online satellite incredibly accurate as back-up. We also Garmin it over and over as a final re-assurance. Dead on every time. So keep lobbying unsubstantiated accusations without back-up. Our back up is below. [url=http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117]http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117[/url] [url=http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117]http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117[/url]
Here is the map ..

http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117

Where is this crazy, egregious error ?
Let's grow the grass up 6 inches, add a lot of sand (like most courses we ran all season) and change the temp from 50 to 80 (and humidity from 90% to 60%) and run the same course and see how many PRs there are. Probably none. Smooth terrain and cold weather is rocket fuel to XC times in FL. (As golf course meets are as rare as the Loch Beas monster) Look how fast kids run at Apalachee WITH 2 hills ... New World is essentially Apalachee with no hills .. if they took out the 2 hills next weekend and it was 48 degrees do you think almost everyone would have big PRs ? The the answer is yes. But back to the map .. there it is .. zoom in .. although the online is just a template for us(we use the steel tape as the de facto) I have found the online satellite incredibly accurate as back-up. We also Garmin it over and over as a final re-assurance. Dead on every time. So keep lobbying unsubstantiated accusations without back-up. Our back up is below.

http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117

http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117
11/05/2018 2:23:33 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Here is the map .. [url=http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117]http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117[/url] Where is this crazy, egregious error ? Let’s grow the grass up 6 inches, add a lot of sand (like most courses we ran all season) and change the temp from 50 to 80 (and humidity from 90% to 60%) and run the same course and see how many PRs there are. Probably none. Smooth terrain and cold weather is rocket fuel to XC times in FL. (As golf course meets are as rare as the Loch Beas monster) Look how fast kids run at Apalachee WITH 2 hills ... New World is essentially Apalachee with no hills .. if they took out the 2 hills next weekend and it was 48 degrees do you think almost everyone would have big PRs ? The the answer is yes. But back to the map .. there it is .. zoom in .. although the online is just a template for us(we use the steel tape as the de facto) I have found the online satellite incredibly accurate as back-up. We also Garmin it over and over as a final re-assurance. Dead on every time. So keep lobbying unsubstantiated accusations without back-up. Our back up is below. [url=http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117]http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117[/url] [url=http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117]http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117[/url]
Here is the map ..

http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117

Where is this crazy, egregious error ?
Let's grow the grass up 6 inches, add a lot of sand (like most courses we ran all season) and change the temp from 50 to 80 (and humidity from 90% to 60%) and run the same course and see how many PRs there are. Probably none. Smooth terrain and cold weather is rocket fuel to XC times in FL. (As golf course meets are as rare as the Loch Beas monster) Look how fast kids run at Apalachee WITH 2 hills ... New World is essentially Apalachee with no hills .. if they took out the 2 hills next weekend and it was 48 degrees do you think almost everyone would have big PRs ? The the answer is yes. But back to the map .. there it is .. zoom in .. although the online is just a template for us(we use the steel tape as the de facto) I have found the online satellite incredibly accurate as back-up. We also Garmin it over and over as a final re-assurance. Dead on every time. So keep lobbying unsubstantiated accusations without back-up. Our back up is below.

http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117

http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=600117
11/06/2018 8:36:18 PM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 452
I dont see how you can decide whether a course is short or long based on research. Get off your butt and go measure it done deal.
I dont see how you can decide whether a course is short or long based on research. Get off your butt and go measure it done deal.

You must be logged in to comment.

Click Here to Log In.