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800 meters of fame

What does it take to rise to the top? For most of us this is just a farfetched dream that never turns into reality. What will it take to rise to the top? Why does it hurt so bad to gain an inch, but loose a foot so easily. I

Benjamin,

What are your goals? How fast do you want to be this year or over the next few years? Are you running year round in a structured program?

My advice would be to read as much as you can about great 800 meter runners like Sir Sebastian Coe and realize runners like Seb are very rare indeed but there may be some good lessons you can apply to your own situation. Good luck and good question.

One big problem with young runner's is that you guys set this do or die goal of a certain time that you want to run by the ned of the season. That is a task goal, the other goals you set are to place a certain place in a meet (state meet) that is a performance goal. Where most runners fail is that you don't set weekly goals. You should be setting practice and meet goals each week. Dont just set performance goals set practice goals. 1) Have a better attiude 2) Complete all workouts 3) Be a team leader etc....

[quote=ben_pigna]800 meters of fame

What does it take to rise to the top? For most of us this is just a farfetched dream that never turns into reality. What will it take to rise to the top? Why does it hurt so bad to gain an inch, but loose a foot so easily. I

I had a lot of success in the 800m once I dedicated myself to getting a strong base in the off- season. Long intervals with the focus on quantity during the GPP, 5x1600m under 5 min with 5 min rest. We also ran 400m hills weekly. But my favorite workouts always included 200m repeats. 10x200m under 28 sec with 30 sec rest between each. Or 5x200m under 23 sec with 4 min rest.

I have been setting weekly goals aside from long term goals. My Pr in the 800 is 2:05 which I ran at UT distance carnival in 2009 in april. It was their first year doing the meet and I don't think they ever posted the results. I have been doing speed workouts such as



12x 200's all under 30 avg 28.5 fastest is 26 slowest was 29.89 with only a min inbetween every one.

8x400's @ 68 with only a 1:20 inbetween then 4-6 200's all under 30. normally I'll run 29 28 28 26, I always aim to run neg splits

Tempo's I'll run a mile or mile and half warm up with 3 miles at pace 5:30ish and then mile and half coold down.


Is it really a necessity to keep the recovery extremely short inorder to gain the most out of the workouts?


I don't have a coach and most of my workouts are done by myself. I have been reading up on Coe and wottle. I know I will be under 2:00 by Feb. My long term goal is to run at Fl Relays.... I've realized what I haven't been doing enough of and am going to change that. My speed is there.
My best workout was were I ran 4x400's I ran 61,60,60,56 with a 100m walk (1:30)


Any other good ideas as far as what i should change up when the season does get here? what type of workouts should I be focusing on now and what type of workouts should I be focusing on in the spring...

ben_pigna

Is it really a necessity to keep the recovery extremely short inorder to gain the most out of the workouts?

Yes-too much recovery time will render the workout basically useless......

In my opinion and judging from the numbers in your workouts, you are ready to run sub 2:00. But it may take a few tries to get it because a fast 800m isn't something you just go out and do. You have to learn how to race it.

How fast do you usually run the 1st 400m? How fast did you run it in your 2:05?

The only other thing I see missing is aerobic capacity. Check your Coe book for distances/times.

Also, having short recoveries is good for simulating the race and the combination of energy sytems needed for an 800m. But if your form is breaking down after a few repeats, then you are doing some harm. You don't want to practice running with bad form and inefficiency.

"What will it take to be number 1 " ???

Your exactly right, It may take a few 800 meter races before i am able to put two decent laps together. I am pretty sure i ran really close to 60 and then ran slower on the second lap. But theres a story to the reason why, not necessarily making excuses but theres a reason for me walking off the track that day and not feeling completely exhausted. Anyways...


This year will be different. I'm hoping to race at UM's invite, USF, UT and hopefully FL relays or FSU relays.

I have been training more specific for my event then I was last year. This year I have been running more 200's 400's 600's. I'm hoping to run 59 for the first lap of my race and come back negative. Thats my goal, thats what i'm training to do.

If you have any good tips on race strategies let me know and if you have any good workouts let me know, they can only help at this point with the season right around the corner....


My time will come, they will see, they will all see....
B.P.

Some good advice in here.

FWIW, I tended to range more towards the mile than the 800 in my training, and I agree with most of what has been said in hear so far as the basic substance of good interval training.

I think there are 3 key areas to successful training (4 if you count rest/recovery). The first is pure strength-- that comes with doing the miles. The second is tuning your body to be better able to handle the stress level you will be putting it under during a race. Intervals as suggested above that are around race pace (slightly faster) shorter than the race distance and with minimal recovery are fantastic for this.

But in addition to this I think you need to do some intervals that are SIGNIFICANTLY faster than race pace. I think part of pushing your efficiency at race pace comes from learning to run MUCH faster than race pace without breaking down form. (If you are sprinting or really straining then you are going to fast). If you your goal is to run a 2:00 half, it isn't enough to be efficient at 59 second quarter pace. You need to develop the stride where you can run at 55 second pace and still feel like you are under control. As the season progresses you should migrate more from the Strength and efficiency workouts towards the speed/form workouts.

I want to echo Coach Ray and add a couple of things. In order to break 2:00 in the 800m, you must:

1. Have speed. AKA be able to run a 53 second (or faster) 400m.

2. Go out fast. In my 4 years of coaching (and 2 years of running track myself) I have NEVER seen a high school runner run sub 2 after coming through at a 59 first lap.

There are tons of other factors to consider including, but not limited to: weather conditions, good competition, racing shoes, etc. All of which will impact your race.

Also, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, your best 800 will be run when you can run the first lap (controlled) 4 seconds slower than your 400m PR, then your second lap should be approx. 4 seconds slower than your first. For example, if your PR in the 400 is 53.0, your ideal first lap should be 57.X and your ideal second lap should be 61.X putting you at 1:58.0 - 1:59.9 range. Depending on training, distance types can cut down the drop from first to second lap but not negative split.

Negative split to run sub 2:00 is very rare at your level.

Would love to hear from anyone who has witnessed this happening.

Like Mr Convey said, it will be important to be able to run 55s 400m without strain and as efficient as possible so you can come back with hopefully a 58-60 2nd 400m. First 400m in 56 or so with a 59-61 may be more realistic right now.

So, what is your fastest all-out 400m right now? If you say 53s or slower then you definitely need to work on efficiency at speed as Mr Convey suggested. But I think the sooner you work on that the better. I think you need to tweak the neuromuscular pathways sooner than waiting towards the end. Doesn't have to be 300-400m right now. You can start with 100-150 and move up in distance towards your goal date. Just keep recoveries moderate for these sessions. Your Coe book will suggest 2-3 X RT (running time) for recoveries for these shorter runs.

When you are running the above workouts, do you have the mentality of "toughing it out" for every run? Does your form break down?

In my opinion, the 800m is all about getting through the 1st 400m as fast and efficient as possible with the least amount of physical and mental fatigue, b/c you are going to need a whole lot of it for the 2nd lap!

Wow, Armen, great minds think alike ;)

That's just plain uncanny

HAHA. Wow. Did that just happen? Kind of reminds me of the 800 race at Districts.

Ben,
In one of your posts you mention Dave Wottle. His gold medal at the '72 Olympics in Munich is the classic lesson in pacing. His splits were, according to Track and Field News, 26.4/26.9/26.4/26.2 - virtually dead even. He was dead last by about 10 meters at the 1st 200 despite running his equal second fastest split. His blazing "kick" was actually just .2" faster than his 1st and 3rd 200s. He blew by almost the entire field in the stretch because they were ALL DYING - and he won by .03". You can find the video, I'm sure, on YouTube.
I also like the story Kenny Moore told in Sports Illustrated about Fred Newhouse, one of the great 400 runners of the '70s. Newhouse had gone out in 21" low and died but he told Moore (who was himself an Olympian - 4th in the '72 marathon) one of these days I won't die. Moore's conclusion: They all die.
This is especially true of young runners. (1)They aren't as strong/fit as mature runners, and (2)they go out even faster relative to their eventual finish time. Don't be one of those.

coach_merjanian

In my 4 years of coaching (and 2 years of running track myself) I have NEVER seen a high school runner run sub 2 after coming through at a 59 first lap.

I've seen Justin Harbor go out in 60 and come back 55. Just saying. LOL!

There were reliable reports of Sam Vasquez running 400m splits of 65/50 at a small meet during the spring of 2003.

It wasn't an 800 but the week before Alan Webb ran his HSR Mile, he split 2:14/1:52 in 1600 at his district meet. He also ran 49.29 in the open 400 and 1:49.53 in the 800, all within 80 minutes of that 1600. www.dyestat.com/state/va/va010517concorde.htm.

So now it looks like you got opinions that cover both ends of the spectrum. You can run negative/even splits like an Olympic Gold medalist, the best HS miler of all time, and some of the best recent Florida distance/mid-distance runners have approached it. Or you follow the advice of a couple of coaches who have had their approach of getting out faster the first 400m work for their athletes for breaking 2:00 or better. I'm sure others have their opinions too but are just not commenting, nor do I expect them to respond.

So, I'm curious how you choose to approach this and how it turns out. I hope to be at UT Distance Carnival this year so maybe I can watch.

By the way, that meet has been on since about 2005. In 2008 it was in Orlando.

Coach Rodriguez hit the nail on the head with an earlier post. Very few athletes on any level can run an elite time (for that level) in the 800 with even splits. Most people just don't have the developed energy systems to sustain the pace during an anaerobic phase. You'll only have so long before your body gives in to the lactics so you better take advantage of it.

Even the 800m WR was run with positive splits.

RayRodriguez

So now it looks like you got opinions that cover both ends of the spectrum. You can run negative/even splits like an Olympic Gold medalist, the best HS miler of all time, and some of the best recent Florida distance/mid-distance runners have approached it.

Coach Raposo, you're just like my runners, always trying to prove me wrong! haha. FYI, us boys from Brooksville don't like to travel much, especially to the other coast (or to big meets) to see state champions like Justin Harbor compete. Plus, he graduated right before I started coaching. So, I stand firm in saying I have never witnessed a HS runner break 2 while negative splitting, although, as you and a few others have pointed out, it has happened. But my question to you is: Is that the best, most efficient way of running an 800? Do you tell your guys to negative split in the "eight"?

In all seriousness, take a look at the WR 800 run by Mr Kipketer that Cnick most graciously posted for us. It looks like after the first 400 meters, he is in 2nd place coming through at about 49 low. Based on Michael Johnson's 400m WR of 43.18, I think it's pretty safe to say that Mr Kipketer's best 400m would be in the 45's. So, if he ran a 49.X for the first 400 meters that means he backed it up with a low 52 for the 2nd lap. As I said in an earlier post, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, your best race will be run when you can hit your first lap 4 seconds slower than your 400m PR, which in turn will make your second lap approx 3-4 seconds slower than your first. To this day, no one has done it better than Kipketer and that is how he set the WR.

One final note, I'm sure Coach Ray could have asked Connor (Revord) to run his first 400 meters in 59-60 and then Connor would have negative splitted his 2nd lap because he has the strength and talent to do so, but I don't think he could have hit or bettered his best mark of 1:54 in doing so.

Regardless of whether you get in an even paced race, or the more typical 800 that goes out fast, the training advice is valid. You need to be able to push your speed/efficiency threshold as far as you can so that you feel under control as far into the race as you can.

I know Joe Franklins PR came by running 55-53.9 splits.
Connor Revords PR of 1:53 came by running 56-55 splits.




Heres the video if you want to watch:
fl.milesplit.us/videos/tags/race?id=7160" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
fl.milesplit.us/videos/tags/race?id=7160

coach_merjanian

Coach Raposo, you're just like my runners, always trying to prove me wrong! But my question to you is: Is that the best, most efficient way of running an 800? Do you tell your guys to negative split in the "eight"?

I try my best.

But what you have been saying in reference to 800 splitting is for the most part correct (although I would sometimes disagree with the 4 seconds from the 400 PR on the first lap for the very top tiered athletes; that's also how you'll get odd combinations with negative splitting and stuff like that). But for the most part its correct.

Here's some athletes I've been lucky enough to coach over the past 2-3 years.
Athlete A: 400 PR = 53 relay, 53 open
800 PR = 1:57 relay, 1:58 open
800 range = 55/62 - 57/60 (very consistent runner)
^He could also run 60/60, but couldn't negative split

Athlete B: 400 PR = 52.9 relay, 54 open
800 PR = 1:57 relay, 1:58 open
800 range = 54/63 - 57/62 (always died around the same speed)

Athlete C: 400 PR = 53 relay, 53 open
800 PR = 1:57 relay, 1:59.0 open
800 range = 57/60 - 59/63 (needs that first lap to be fast)

Athlete D: 400 PR = 54 relay, 55 open
800 PR = 1:58 relay, 2:04 open (only ran it three times)
800 range = 56/62 - 60/64

So yes, for the most part, the first lap needs to be really fast. Stamina work is a major must for the athletes not blessed with real speed (like those above) to be able to achieve sub 2:00 times. And that first lap is basically learning how to comfortably stride at near 400 PR pace. Also, those 800 ranges are obviously for good racing days. I've seen many days where anyone of them could go 58/70 or 60/67. But that's part of the sport.

Now don't ask me why I've had three girls who've had 58-61 400 PRs and I can't get them to go out faster than 69. That's a whole different subject I just can't wrap my mind around.

Could it be the discipline of the longer distance runners allows them to be more patient to do negative splits? Harbor,Franklin and Revord were 3 of the best in XC.

Kbrnr

Connor's time would have been 1:51 with 56-55 splits and you said his final time was 1:53, unless I misunderstood what you meant.

Connor also ran a 1:53 (handheld, up to 1:54.0 with adjustment) at Jesuit against the Wehunts and Darrin Gibson (I'd like to see Darrin succeed at negative splitting! ;)) this past 2009 season.

Coach Merjanian could give you splits of that race. He still has the video on his phone. I'm pretty sure he didn't negative split.