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It is that time of year to again talk about the FHSAA system for qualifying for the State Finals meet. I will present the facts and open the ‘floor’ for discussion. For our forum I will use boys 3A as the starting point example because of the high level of competition in the class this year (4 of the top 10 teams. 10 of the top 26).

Insanity is defined as continuing to do the same thing over and over expecting different results so outline your solutions to this same old problem. Please feel free to pitch other states or other sports systems that could be adopted.

As you all know 24 Teams compete in the State Finals per classification, 6 from each region.

Here are the top 24 3A teams in the state as of 11/1/2010:

1 FL Charlotte HS R3 #1 State #3
2 FL Belen Jesuit Preparatory School R4 #1 State #4
3 FL Leon HS R1 #1 State #7
4 FL Pensacola Booker T. Washington HS R1 #2 State #10
5 FL Wiregrass Ranch HS R2 #1 State #11
6 FL Niceville HS R1 #3 State #14
7 FL Fort Walton Beach HS R1 #4 State #13
8 FL Naples HS R3 #2 State #18
9 FL Bartram Trail HS R1 #5 State #21
10 FL Fort Myers HS R3 #3 State #26
11 FL Creekside HS R1 #6 State #30
12 FL Lincoln HS R1 #7 State #33
13 FL Chiles HS R1 #8 State #36
14 FL Martin County HS R4 #2 State #40
15 FL Palmetto Ridge HS R3 #4 State #44
16 FL Land O Lakes HS R2 #2 State #46
17 FL Oviedo HS R4 #3 State #57
18 FL Navarre HS R1 #9 State #59
19 FL Ida S. Baker HS R3 #5 State #62
20 FL Lemon Bay HS R3 #6 State #61
21 FL St. Cloud HS R4 #4 State #64
22 FL Nature Coast Tech R2 #3 State #63
23 FL South Fork HS R4 #5 State #69
24 FL Ridgeview HS R1 #10 State #71

Region 1 has 10 teams in the top 24
Region 2 has 3 teams in the top 24
Region 3 has 6 teams in the top 24
Region 4 has 5 teams in the top 24

Region 3 has its even split of teams (6) in the Top 24 and Region 4 is only off by one (R4 #6 - Okeechobee is #26). Region 2 has only 3 in the top 24 and Region 1 has 10 and will be sending home 4 top teams (2 of which are in the top 15).

The result of this is we have a team that is ranked #33 in the state for all divisions and #12 in it’s own class possibly sitting out the state meet while a team that is ranked #95 in state and #33 in class quite possibly will run in the big show.

Discuss.

@twangster

Qualify top 5 teams from each region instead of top 6, then add 4 other teams based on some predetermined formula: highest ranked or fastest average time at district or fastest average time at pre-state or an NCAA BCS-type blend of these or other criteria that produces four best mathematically-ranked qualifiers.

Agreed that the system the FHSAA uses can be somewhat watered down. This is seen especially when districts that only have 7 or 8 schools, and 6 of them go on to regionals, and some of the schools are not competitive at all. Our girls team finished 10th at our district meet today with a team average of 22:30 or so. I know that in many other districts they would be good enough to qualify. The tough thing about cross country is that the courses can vary greatly, where it may be tough to determine which team is better than another. I think having a minimum qualifying standard would be tough because of this, but doable. There are probably more coaches out there that would probably have good insights into this- hint hint

Kenya can only send 3 athletes per event to the Olympic just like every other country.

@sobchak

Correct, but how does Kenya select those 3 athletes. Not by disallowing athletes based on geography I would bet.

I totally agree with re-working a system that is obviously broken. This is why the "wild card" was established in the NFL and in MLB and the "selection committee" in the NCAA baseball and basketball tournaments. When divisions are created based on regionality there is bound to be an inequality in the separation and one division is going to be far superior to another. We at Timber Creek know all too well how it feels here in Central Florida where our District (4A District 3) has 4 teams currently ranked in the Top 10 and a 5th team ranked in the Top 20. If you go even further, our Region of Death (and believe me before I talked with Coach Frank and started paying attention to 3A, I thought we were alone) has SIX teams ranked in the TOP 10 and EIGHT teams ranked in the TOP 15. That means two studly teams are going to be at home that could possibly be a legit TOP 15 squad. I agree...This is INSANE. If we truly want the "best teams in the State of Florida" represented at the State Championship it is time we devised a board of voters or have some kind of wild card system that allows for teams who are obvious TOP 20 teams to get their due shot at the Big Dance.

I agree that the system is not fair in this situation specifically when a good team will not be represented..but I do not think a wild card would be the way to fix this..the reason I have is that how would you pick the team that "deserves" to be in the race... It's hard to compare teams that are all running different courses and if you are trying to pick one how would you go at this if a team is running not at full potential individually but running tactically as a group to run together to be safe.
I believe the system is not right..but is their another way?

@noahjacovitz
I agree with some of your points, but if a team is borderline not making it to state, they won't be running the race safely to be ready for regions, they will be giving it their all.

Well in a regional situation that can very easily happen.. A easy region teams can coast a hard region teams 1-10 have to race to their top level ..who deserves it more..easy region 1-6 or the harder region team.. Both are in different race situations

Just as I say every year...

While I do acknowledge that many top tiered state teams (possibly top 10-15 state level teams) will stay home after getting boxed out at region, you cannot discount teams that run in a different geographical location for a variety of reasons. I personally feel that the state championship should be made up of athletes and teams from around the state and the best from those various areas.

To not understand the major differences in weather and overall training for teams in the north of the state (typically the "faster" programs) versus the south of the state is foolish. That being said, part of coaching strategy is knowing how and when to properly "peak" or train your athletes to run their best at whatever qualifying meet is necessary, or state meet if you're one of the lucky few.

This is probably the second most debated topic on the forum, primarily during track & field, after the course measurement debates. And I will always maintain my standpoint that until you run and train in the southern half of the state and see many of the difficulties and differences from the north, you cannot have a proper discussion. And by the way, the FHSAA did a fairly good job of breaking up some of the previous "Regions of Death" so qualifying now isn't as hard as it was just a couple of years ago.

Having said my piece as usual, good luck in the upcoming weeks folks!

Warning, what I am about to write is a different point of view. It will spurn discussion, this is a discussion board.

I think you have to start by looking at what the purpose of the state meet is, to crown a champion. The 7th place finisher in any region will likely not challenge for either of the top 2 spots at the state finals. In most sports there are only 2 teams vying for the title, but cross country is not like most sports. I get that. There was a time not long ago when only the top 4 teams advanced to the state finals and the top 5 individuals. I do not believe a state champion caliber squad has been left home with the current or former state qualifying system.

If your belief is that the state championships are an experience to be cherished and had by as many “deserving” teams and athletes as possible, then of course there should be as many teams as possible there. This however cheapens the value of what a state championship race is. It should be elite, a difficult goal, the ultimate challenge! It’s not a surprise how tough things are going to be to an educated coach or athlete. Start planning and training in MAY. If you want to get to the state meet, make the sacrifices needed. Run smarter, recruit (from the halls) more aggressively, make the sport something kids want to do, and then do it right! Every team in the state has the right to compete at the district level. Those who have not prepared enough should be eliminated. The strong teams that make it to the regional levels should know what is needed to qualify through. If it’s a tough region, you as a coach gamble, peak for region and hope the kids can do well one week later. If you are in a weak region, cruise baby. Very few people can rattle off region meet champions the way they can recite state champions!

Here’s a different point of view (and Dave G – I love you), make it the top 5 teams and the top 5 individuals not on one of those teams to qualify through. Make the state championships truly elite. Then the 160 kids in the race KNOW they are indeed in a quality event that VERY FEW people can attain. Life is hard, and the sooner young people stop being coddled be parents and coaches and told - all of you deserve a trophy or a ribbon, then maybe they will be tougher and possibly more responsible and reliable in the end. Be proud of a state qualifying status. If you are in a tough district or region, then prepare your team! Prepare yourself! If a football or volleyball team is in a tough district, they still have to beat the teams in the district! Not everything is a YMCA feel good competition.

Bottom line -What do you want the highest level of competition in this sport to be? An opportunity for coaches to say “Hey, let’s make it to the state meet”, or “Hey, let’s try to win the state meet”?

What Mike said... well, 90% of it anyway.

@nmmeans

I totally agree with you Mike, however, if you want it to be truly an Elite race for athletes then just make it the Top 3 teams advancing to State with the TOP 5 individuals not on those teams advancing as well. This would make the State meet have 12 Elite teams and would be a race of a little over 100 runners. I am ok with this philosophy and thinking, but that is not what we have in place currently and unfortunately the system that we have now does reward lower tier schools, so the schools that work their butts off in a stronger Region (and train to peak at Region) feel their season was a disappointment when they are not rewarded in comparison to other Regions. We don't create this feeling, the system does. And I don't agree that if you take away the #7 and #8 schools from a strong Region out that they wouldn't make a difference. Sure, those schools wouldn't have a chance at "winning" the State Championship (which is definitely a goal of any team when they start the season, but not all) but they would definitely affect the outcome of who would win. For example, lets say Sarasota and Seminole fall victim to the #7 and #8 spots in the Region of Death this year (just an example). They are currenlty ranked in the TOP 15 in 4A. If we replace them with two lower tier schools from a weaker Region the weakers schools wouldn't really affect the fast times at the top where the Elite teams are scoring. But if you put Sarasota and Seminole in the race...because you have teams with faster times displacing higher ranking places it could definitely change who the team champion might be. So we need to be clear as a sport on what message we want to send to our young athletes, will the State Championship be a true ELITE race or a race where several teams, including ELITE teams are rewarded for their hard work. I'm ok with either way, but if it is based on the latter system we need to expand our field or come up with a way to have equality. I use the NCAA basketball tournament as an example where expansion has accured to have more teams included in the field of 64. Now I know our sport is not a tournament nor is it going to have 64 teams represented, but its set up in a manner where you have automatic qualifying standards and then the other teams are selected based on a "selection committee". I think this could work in our sport if we wanted it to. We would have automatic qualifying like we have now...lets say TOP 5 teams in Region advance and then the remaining 4 spots would be at the mercy of a "selection committee" composed of various intellectuals in the sport (doesn't have to be just coaches) who would debate the remaining 4 teams in. I think it would add some fun to things and would restore some balance and equality to a broken system. Just my thoughts....and I'm out of breath.

...Oh and I Love you too Mike.