Advisory Committee Recommendations
11/17/2010 11:32:05 AM
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The Cross Country Advisory Committee to the FHSAA is scheduled to meet on December 2nd. I know there have been discussions on this forum recently about rule changes. Please feel free to post your ideas below or refresh my memory about what has been discussed recently. The Reps are as follows: Section 1 Boys Paul Nowicki Bartram Trail High School (Section 1 girls and Section 2 boys are vacant) Section 2 Girls David Halliday Flagler Palm Coast High School Section 3 Boys Jason Means Riverview High School (Sarasota) Section 3 Girls Dale Meskimen George Jenkins High School Section 4 Boys Don Kappelman Ransom Everglades High School Section 4 Girls Paul Baur Westminster Academy FACA Representative Michael Boza Plant High School
The Cross Country Advisory Committee to the FHSAA is scheduled to meet on December 2nd.
I know there have been discussions on this forum recently about rule changes. Please feel free to post your ideas below or refresh my memory about what has been discussed recently.

The Reps are as follows:
Section 1 Boys
Paul Nowicki
Bartram Trail High School

(Section 1 girls and Section 2 boys are vacant)

Section 2 Girls
David Halliday
Flagler Palm Coast High School

Section 3 Boys
Jason Means
Riverview High School (Sarasota)

Section 3 Girls
Dale Meskimen
George Jenkins High School

Section 4 Boys
Don Kappelman
Ransom Everglades High School

Section 4 Girls
Paul Baur
Westminster Academy

FACA Representative
Michael Boza
Plant High School
11/17/2010 12:40:09 PM
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Currently 6 teams advance from district to region if there is 12 or less teams in the district and 8 teams advance from district to region if there are 16 or more teams. Lets add to that "advance 7 teams if there is 13 to 15 teams in the district"
Currently 6 teams advance from district to region if there is 12 or less teams in the district and 8 teams advance from district to region if there are 16 or more teams.
Lets add to that "advance 7 teams if there is 13 to 15 teams in the district"
11/17/2010 1:02:15 PM
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Coach Means, check your PM Gardner
Coach Means, check your PM

Gardner
11/17/2010 1:12:43 PM
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@ccmhs I guess I will take the minority position from all the posts I keep reading. I recall in my first 3 yrs of HS it was top 4 teams and top 7 individuals. That was a bit extreme I will admit. But I like the current rules in place. The only issue I have is they should divide the districts evenly or as close to even as possible. Location of fast teams is relative year to year, so I think it is ridiculous to say 8 teams should go to ensure teams get in. Guess what its a sport and you race the district and region you are in, some win some lose. If your team is faster then another team in another district or region that made state and you were left home because you had 6 faster teams in your race....TOO BAD run faster, it is an honor and a privilidge to attend the State meet. Why should a team that may be slower be penalized and to be honest the faster teams up front would be rewarded. Times (top teams will run as fast as they need to at regionals) and courses are not standardized, for all we know one course is a bit short another is long, etc. Way too many variables to say for sure why the avg time is slower here to there. Plus with more teams at the state meet the results will change as oppsoed to that of a 24 team state meet. Not to mention we would have to find a venue to hold X amount more teams for, lodging, camp area, parking, spectators, etc. On to what I would like adjusted.. 1) Standard measuring practices 2) How are we going to adjust the season length and schedule, based on school starting earlier next year? 3) I'm sure I will think of something for 3...I will add it when I do.... 3) Coordinate with JROTC raiders competition to not conflict (somehow)
@ccmhs
I guess I will take the minority position from all the posts I keep reading. I recall in my first 3 yrs of HS it was top 4 teams and top 7 individuals. That was a bit extreme I will admit. But I like the current rules in place. The only issue I have is they should divide the districts evenly or as close to even as possible.

Location of fast teams is relative year to year, so I think it is ridiculous to say 8 teams should go to ensure teams get in. Guess what its a sport and you race the district and region you are in, some win some lose. If your team is faster then another team in another district or region that made state and you were left home because you had 6 faster teams in your race....TOO BAD run faster, it is an honor and a privilidge to attend the State meet. Why should a team that may be slower be penalized and to be honest the faster teams up front would be rewarded. Times (top teams will run as fast as they need to at regionals) and courses are not standardized, for all we know one course is a bit short another is long, etc. Way too many variables to say for sure why the avg time is slower here to there. Plus with more teams at the state meet the results will change as oppsoed to that of a 24 team state meet. Not to mention we would have to find a venue to hold X amount more teams for, lodging, camp area, parking, spectators, etc.

On to what I would like adjusted..
1) Standard measuring practices
2) How are we going to adjust the season length and schedule, based on school starting earlier next year?
3) I'm sure I will think of something for 3...I will add it when I do....
3) Coordinate with JROTC raiders competition to not conflict (somehow)
11/17/2010 2:03:22 PM
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@Raycer131 In reference and in addition to #2 above: During this school year, there is a HUGE overlap between girls soccer and cross country. If an XC team makes it to the state meet, the 2 sports overlap 6 weeks! For boys soccer it is a 5 week overlap. There is an overlap with basketball as well, but not as bad. For girls basketball there is a 4 week overlap and for boys there is a 3 week overlap if the XC team makes it to state. I don't know what the solution is. Maybe moving the entire XC season up 1 week or adjusting the winter season maybe making it shorter (soccer season is 15 weeks to district play! Of course, 2 of those weeks are during Christmas break). In any case, it just seems unfair to the individual who wants to do both. It is also unfair to their teams. Trust me, I much rather have any XC runner building a base again during the winter season and just focusing on running. But we can't force all individuals to follow that pattern. In fact, if they were cross training during the winter season, soccer would be my preferred sport. Is this soccer/XC overlap an issue with anyone else? Especially the girls? It's my guess that larger schools have less of a issue with this.
@Raycer131

In reference and in addition to #2 above:

During this school year, there is a HUGE overlap between girls soccer and cross country. If an XC team makes it to the state meet, the 2 sports overlap 6 weeks! For boys soccer it is a 5 week overlap.

There is an overlap with basketball as well, but not as bad. For girls basketball there is a 4 week overlap and for boys there is a 3 week overlap if the XC team makes it to state.

I don't know what the solution is. Maybe moving the entire XC season up 1 week or adjusting the winter season maybe making it shorter (soccer season is 15 weeks to district play! Of course, 2 of those weeks are during Christmas break). In any case, it just seems unfair to the individual who wants to do both. It is also unfair to their teams.

Trust me, I much rather have any XC runner building a base again during the winter season and just focusing on running. But we can't force all individuals to follow that pattern. In fact, if they were cross training during the winter season, soccer would be my preferred sport.

Is this soccer/XC overlap an issue with anyone else? Especially the girls? It's my guess that larger schools have less of a issue with this.
11/17/2010 2:14:18 PM
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@RayRodriguez Ray - unfortunately we r back to the "f" word (sorry - football) Spring football is protected and pushes forward all others as well- That said I would favor shortening the season. We used to have a number of soccer players run and now they simply don't - Other states end earlier and they begin school later! It can be done. Another option is return to 2 week state series like in the past - District to state. One option discussed in the summer clinic is a good one as well - opening up early season meets to more than 7 varsity runners - (like college meets) - still scoring seven but allowing team members to run together not all in seperate JV races early on.
@RayRodriguez
Ray - unfortunately we r back to the "f" word (sorry - football)
Spring football is protected and pushes forward all others as well-
That said I would favor shortening the season. We used to have a number of soccer players run and now they simply don't - Other states end earlier and they begin school later! It can be done. Another option is return to 2 week state series like in the past - District to state. One option discussed in the summer clinic is a good one as well - opening up early season meets to more than 7 varsity runners - (like college meets) - still scoring seven but allowing team members to run together not all in seperate JV races early on.
11/17/2010 2:23:11 PM
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1) Base the 6/8 team advancement on teams scoring or full teams on the entry list, not on teams on the line at the race. I'm 99% certain this will be brought up anyway, but make sure it does. I'm for teams scoring, myself. 2) Get the districts aligned so that all districts are within 2 teams of being equal. The topic was brought up earlier this week about 4A's skewing. 4A District 2 has 12 teams, while 4A Districts 3 & 4 have 21. The others have 16 or 18. Nathan Means Mount Dora Bible School Class 1A, Region 2, District 3
1) Base the 6/8 team advancement on teams scoring or full teams on the entry list, not on teams on the line at the race. I'm 99% certain this will be brought up anyway, but make sure it does. I'm for teams scoring, myself.

2) Get the districts aligned so that all districts are within 2 teams of being equal. The topic was brought up earlier this week about 4A's skewing. 4A District 2 has 12 teams, while 4A Districts 3 & 4 have 21. The others have 16 or 18.

Nathan Means
Mount Dora Bible School
Class 1A, Region 2, District 3
11/17/2010 3:15:09 PM
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1. At the district meet I am for only counting teams that finish with a team score not just lining up. 2. Raycer131 if you are commenting on my suggestion to allow 7 teams to advance from DISTRICT to REGION this would not effect the number going from region to state that should stay at 6. If you don't have a problem with 8 of 16 going then what is wrong with 7 of 14? 3. The soccer/xc overlap is a big problem and needs to be addressed. The reason we have the huge overlap in seasons is so Football can have their own Spring Football Season with very little overlap of other sports. If spring sports went longer in the school year then you could cut the overlap in half
1. At the district meet I am for only counting teams that finish with a team score not just lining up.

2. Raycer131 if you are commenting on my suggestion to allow 7 teams to advance from DISTRICT to REGION this would not effect the number going from region to state that should stay at 6. If you don't have a problem with 8 of 16 going then what is wrong with 7 of 14?

3. The soccer/xc overlap is a big problem and needs to be addressed. The reason we have the huge overlap in seasons is so Football can have their own Spring Football Season with very little overlap of other sports. If spring sports went longer in the school year then you could cut the overlap in half
11/17/2010 4:05:59 PM
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@RayRodriguez Ray, I beleive I have had this converstaion with you or other coaches before, but I completely agree. CC season needs to be moved up by MORE
@RayRodriguez

Ray,

I beleive I have had this converstaion with you or other coaches before, but I completely agree. CC season needs to be moved up by MORE
11/17/2010 4:08:05 PM
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@ccmhs The post wasn't directed directly toward you...I have seen a million posts about 8 from regionals and the region of death and stuff. Honestly the 6,7,8 rule is fine, but I still think the main issue is evening out the districts in the first place. Counting the teams that finish the race at the meet is an idea, but things happen runners get hurt, I can't find it in myself to have to go to a coach and say I am sorry your team didn't get to move on cause my kid didn't finish. That would suck on the giving or receiving end. I also don't like the entry list idea, cause then coaches will just fill up names of non-runners and only the state and host school see the entry list of runners. Not to mention the fact that there is no check system currently only self reporting on the 4 meet rule as it stands now.
@ccmhs
The post wasn't directed directly toward you...I have seen a million posts about 8 from regionals and the region of death and stuff. Honestly the 6,7,8 rule is fine, but I still think the main issue is evening out the districts in the first place.

Counting the teams that finish the race at the meet is an idea, but things happen runners get hurt, I can't find it in myself to have to go to a coach and say I am sorry your team didn't get to move on cause my kid didn't finish. That would suck on the giving or receiving end.

I also don't like the entry list idea, cause then coaches will just fill up names of non-runners and only the state and host school see the entry list of runners.

Not to mention the fact that there is no check system currently only self reporting on the 4 meet rule as it stands now.
11/17/2010 4:12:58 PM
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@RayRodriguez The Soccer, wrestling, baskeball overlap is huge issues. Think of all 3 sports and how many would or could use running (and some do) to get in shape for their "main" sport. You may have a gem of a kid who is an awsome runner that is a wrestler or basketball player, and trust me the second practice starts for B-ball its hard to have to say to that kid you can't go to practice till our season is over. Also can we figure out a way to work with the [b]JROTC raiders competition committee [/b]whomever that is...they hold their main competitions right during the State series. At our region I saw several runners go down due to it being the day after a raiders competition, and last year I had issues with similar things on my own team.
@RayRodriguez
The Soccer, wrestling, baskeball overlap is huge issues. Think of all 3 sports and how many would or could use running (and some do) to get in shape for their "main" sport. You may have a gem of a kid who is an awsome runner that is a wrestler or basketball player, and trust me the second practice starts for B-ball its hard to have to say to that kid you can't go to practice till our season is over. Also can we figure out a way to work with the JROTC raiders competition committee whomever that is...they hold their main competitions right during the State series. At our region I saw several runners go down due to it being the day after a raiders competition, and last year I had issues with similar things on my own team.
11/17/2010 4:13:02 PM
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@RayRodriguez Ray, I beleive I have had this conversation with you and many other coaches. CC season needs to start MORE than 1 week earlier, even though this will be way before school starts. Besides, coaches that really care about their sport will be working with their team all summer anyway. The overlap between CC and Girls Soccer is killing me. I had 6 girls that ran cc for me this year that also play soccer, and all I kept hearing is "can I go to soccer after cc practice is over" or "can I go to soccer practice instead today, we run there anyway". This huge overlap is frustrating especially at a smaller school, where sharing of athletes is prevalent, and most kids play more than one sport. In short, my recommendation would be to movee cc season up as well. I do acknowledge there would be some kinks to be worked out with starting a season way before school starts
@RayRodriguez

Ray, I beleive I have had this conversation with you and many other coaches. CC season needs to start MORE than 1 week earlier, even though this will be way before school starts. Besides, coaches that really care about their sport will be working with their team all summer anyway.

The overlap between CC and Girls Soccer is killing me. I had 6 girls that ran cc for me this year that also play soccer, and all I kept hearing is "can I go to soccer after cc practice is over" or "can I go to soccer practice instead today, we run there anyway". This huge overlap is frustrating especially at a smaller school, where sharing of athletes is prevalent, and most kids play more than one sport. In short, my recommendation would be to movee cc season up as well. I do acknowledge there would be some kinks to be worked out with starting a season way before school starts
11/17/2010 4:17:35 PM
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@aholmes80 Should be less of an issue if school starts 2 weeks earlier as it is supposed to. And i know this is the wrong committee to talk to since it is CC not Track...but why is Soccer apparently 13 to districts, and Track is only 11, and you have spring break in there (during the state series) and FCAT which in lee county we are not "allowed" to practice for sports during that week at all.
@aholmes80
Should be less of an issue if school starts 2 weeks earlier as it is supposed to. And i know this is the wrong committee to talk to since it is CC not Track...but why is Soccer apparently 13 to districts, and Track is only 11, and you have spring break in there (during the state series) and FCAT which in lee county we are not "allowed" to practice for sports during that week at all.
11/17/2010 8:33:03 PM
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Jason, Thanks for giving us this opportunity to express. In concert with many previous posts, I submit that the top issue right now is the unworkable overlap between cross-country and soccer. I specifically use the term "unworkable" because many soccer players (who often have great cross-country ability) now don't even fiddle with coming out for XC, because their coaches give them so much grief for missing the first month of soccer. I think FHSAA needs to be educated about the extent of sharing. Perhaps a simple statewide survey, asking how many XC kids also play soccer, would illuminate?
Jason,
Thanks for giving us this opportunity to express. In concert with many previous posts, I submit that the top issue right now is the unworkable overlap between cross-country and soccer. I specifically use the term "unworkable" because many soccer players (who often have great cross-country ability) now don't even fiddle with coming out for XC, because their coaches give them so much grief for missing the first month of soccer. I think FHSAA needs to be educated about the extent of sharing. Perhaps a simple statewide survey, asking how many XC kids also play soccer, would illuminate?
11/18/2010 9:50:05 AM
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Thanks to all of you. Keep them coming. Remember any coach or AD in the state can write up a recommendation. So if you have the gift of putting pen to paper eloquently please feel free. The forms are printable from the FHSAA website. Then send it to your Rep. or Shanelle Young or Justin Harrison at the FHSAA. I agree with Gary and every other coach I have talked to regarding the Soccer/XC overlap. It is a BIG problem. I wonder how the soccer coaches would answer this question, "May I take several of your best athletes away for a few practices right as you are preparing for State Series competition?" I have already writen up a recommendation. The other issue that I have heard, although it is probably not a CC Advisory issue, is the problem with 4A Region 2. It's not that there are too many fast teams it's really about the fact that 3 of the 5 largest population centers make up that region. I currently have a draft Jacksonville: 852,450 Miami: 395,434 Tampa: 336,264 St. Petersburg: 253,369 Orlando: 228,765 Source: Bureau of Economic and Business Research, University of Florida, 2007. A third is the "Nowicki Rule." It is the interesting idea of allowing teams to run 10 in a varsity race at early season meets a la Georgia. If someone would like to write up something regarding advancement from district to region I will gladly present it. Also, if anyone would like to address the earlier start to the school year and aligning our season with that change, please write it up. Any others that I am missing? Jason Means Sarasota Riverview H.S.
Thanks to all of you. Keep them coming. Remember any coach or AD in the state can write up a recommendation. So if you have the gift of putting pen to paper eloquently please feel free. The forms are printable from the FHSAA website. Then send it to your Rep. or Shanelle Young or Justin Harrison at the FHSAA.

I agree with Gary and every other coach I have talked to regarding the Soccer/XC overlap. It is a BIG problem. I wonder how the soccer coaches would answer this question, "May I take several of your best athletes away for a few practices right as you are preparing for State Series competition?" I have already writen up a recommendation.

The other issue that I have heard, although it is probably not a CC Advisory issue, is the problem with 4A Region 2. It's not that there are too many fast teams it's really about the fact that 3 of the 5 largest population centers make up that region. I currently have a draft

Jacksonville: 852,450
Miami: 395,434
Tampa: 336,264
St. Petersburg: 253,369
Orlando: 228,765
Source: Bureau of Economic and Business Research, University of Florida, 2007.

A third is the "Nowicki Rule." It is the interesting idea of allowing teams to run 10 in a varsity race at early season meets a la Georgia.

If someone would like to write up something regarding advancement from district to region I will gladly present it.

Also, if anyone would like to address the earlier start to the school year and aligning our season with that change, please write it up.

Any others that I am missing?

Jason Means
Sarasota Riverview H.S.
11/18/2010 9:59:55 AM
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I believe the Jacksonville area has moved the season up by one week already. It used to be that BK was the first meet in the city in the middle of September. This year Ridgeview moved their meet from late September to one week before BK. Fine with us; we start school about Aug 7, so a meet right after Labor day is great for our kids. the Ridgeview move was a great success, 20+ schools, and not so much pressure for a first meet because BK is such a pressure packed meet. (and a great meet too)
I believe the Jacksonville area has moved the season up by one week already. It used to be that BK was the first meet in the city in the middle of September. This year Ridgeview moved their meet from late September to one week before BK. Fine with us; we start school about Aug 7, so a meet right after Labor day is great for our kids. the Ridgeview move was a great success, 20+ schools, and not so much pressure for a first meet because BK is such a pressure packed meet. (and a great meet too)
11/18/2010 10:29:53 AM
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@GaryDroze Yesterday I asked a soccer player in my top 7 if anyone on soccer would have run XC if the overlap wasn't so great. She named 2, and perhaps there are more. I've also heard of a soccer coach who is so frustrated with not having the XC athletes out that next year he is considering not letting anyone play on his team if the athlete chooses to do XC before soccer. I know...they can't do that...but the point is NEITHER XC or soccer benefit from this overlap. -Ray
@GaryDroze

Yesterday I asked a soccer player in my top 7 if anyone on soccer would have run XC if the overlap wasn't so great. She named 2, and perhaps there are more.

I've also heard of a soccer coach who is so frustrated with not having the XC athletes out that next year he is considering not letting anyone play on his team if the athlete chooses to do XC before soccer. I know...they can't do that...but the point is NEITHER XC or soccer benefit from this overlap.

-Ray
11/18/2010 10:35:18 AM
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@cghswift The only thing "moved up" this season was the first competition date, thanks to last year's advisory committee meeting. What they are talking about now is "moving up" the entire season including the state meet in order to minimize conflict with the soccer season.
@cghswift The only thing "moved up" this season was the first competition date, thanks to last year's advisory committee meeting. What they are talking about now is "moving up" the entire season including the state meet in order to minimize conflict with the soccer season.
11/18/2010 10:48:51 AM
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Moving the entire season one week earlier would be extremely beneficial. It would be more in line with the rest of the country (most state meets were last weekend). And potentially (I think) it could allow NXN Southeast and Foot Locker South to be different weekends--not that that's a huge issue but it would matter to some.
Moving the entire season one week earlier would be extremely beneficial. It would be more in line with the rest of the country (most state meets were last weekend). And potentially (I think) it could allow NXN Southeast and Foot Locker South to be different weekends--not that that's a huge issue but it would matter to some.
11/18/2010 11:00:15 AM
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[quote=coachmeans]Jacksonville: 852,450 Miami: 395,434 Tampa: 336,264 St. Petersburg: 253,369 Orlando: 228,765 Source: Bureau of Economic and Business Research, University of Florida, 2007. A third is the "Nowicki Rule." It is the interesting idea of allowing teams to run 10 in a varsity race at early season meets a la Georgia. [/quote] @coachmeans That might only be the "City of Miami". We definitely have a couple million throughout Miami-Dade County (Hileah to Homestead). And I like the Nowicki Rule. That idea has promise.
coachmeans wrote:
Jacksonville: 852,450
Miami: 395,434
Tampa: 336,264
St. Petersburg: 253,369
Orlando: 228,765
Source: Bureau of Economic and Business Research, University of Florida, 2007.

A third is the "Nowicki Rule." It is the interesting idea of allowing teams to run 10 in a varsity race at early season meets a la Georgia.


@coachmeans That might only be the "City of Miami". We definitely have a couple million throughout Miami-Dade County (Hileah to Homestead).

And I like the Nowicki Rule. That idea has promise.

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