Middle School XC distance
08/15/2011 4:28:58 PM
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Are any Florida (or other US) MS public or private institutions or individuals competing during the cross country season at the 3Km distance? Aside from FYRA (Middle School State) that is... Flrunners 12 (and I believe Pre-State) has a 2M distance listed for MS. I note that AAU, USATF, and Cross Country Coaches National Youth Championships for 2011 have for bantam/midget/youth/etc., 3Km, 4Km, and 5Km races, no imperial distances in sight. It seems inevitable that the last remaining imperial running distance in T&F or XC will eventually drop 2M and go metric. Any bets on what year the switch will occur? Where else but (some if not all of these) United States Middle School cross country is an imperial distance the standard? I'm just asking - I really don't know the answer. On a related note, is anyone updating the [url=http://www.flyra.org/]Florida Youth Running Association[/url] site for the 2011 event? I note the countdown clock and 5 November 2011 date are given. But clicking on the race schedule gives 2010 info. Somewhat related... Happy times when I read of the dumping of "middle of course" measurement (rule 9-1-1 partial) by [url=http://www.nfhs.org/CoachingTodayContent.aspx?id=5515]NFHS[/url]. More can be done to improve XC course measurement techniques and specifications - see [url=http://measure.infopop.cc/eve]here[/url] and [url=http://oncourseratingsystems.com/]here[/url] - but that was a welcome change, if not an explanation or admission of guilt. Thanks, John Kalin
Are any Florida (or other US) MS public or private institutions or individuals competing during the cross country season at the 3Km distance? Aside from FYRA (Middle School State) that is...
Flrunners 12 (and I believe Pre-State) has a 2M distance listed for MS.
I note that AAU, USATF, and Cross Country Coaches National Youth Championships for 2011 have for bantam/midget/youth/etc., 3Km, 4Km, and 5Km races, no imperial distances in sight.
It seems inevitable that the last remaining imperial running distance in T&F or XC will eventually drop 2M and go metric. Any bets on what year the switch will occur? Where else but (some if not all of these) United States Middle School cross country is an imperial distance the standard? I'm just asking - I really don't know the answer.
On a related note, is anyone updating the Florida Youth Running Association site for the 2011 event? I note the countdown clock and 5 November 2011 date are given. But clicking on the race schedule gives 2010 info.
Somewhat related...
Happy times when I read of the dumping of "middle of course" measurement (rule 9-1-1 partial) by NFHS. More can be done to improve XC course measurement techniques and specifications - see here and here - but that was a welcome change, if not an explanation or admission of guilt.
Thanks,
John Kalin
08/15/2011 9:06:57 PM
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In the Miami public circuit we used to run 2 miles when cross country was 3 miles, but since the transition to 5k we also added the .1 to the MS course. So we actually run 2.1 miles. That's for both Varsity and JV. In the Miami private circuit they do 1 mile for primary/elementary cross country, 1.5 miles from JV, and 2 miles for Varsity. I'm not a fan of the metric measurements at all. Also, the middle course measure was just dumb to begin with. I'm glad the National Federation finally figured it out, and I'm thankful to Coach Braman for him notifying whoever he knows at the National Federation that there was a flaw in the system.
In the Miami public circuit we used to run 2 miles when cross country was 3 miles, but since the transition to 5k we also added the .1 to the MS course. So we actually run 2.1 miles. That's for both Varsity and JV. In the Miami private circuit they do 1 mile for primary/elementary cross country, 1.5 miles from JV, and 2 miles for Varsity.

I'm not a fan of the metric measurements at all.

Also, the middle course measure was just dumb to begin with. I'm glad the National Federation finally figured it out, and I'm thankful to Coach Braman for him notifying whoever he knows at the National Federation that there was a flaw in the system.
08/15/2011 11:29:16 PM
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@JohnKalin Will see what we can do at flrunners... frankly I'd love to change it to 3K like FLYRA. However, am kind of in the same situation Ryan says they are in with their course in Miami. The course is kind of dictating the distance. Moving our start line up another 200 meters would create an even odder starting line for our middle school race. And since we're going around a lake and have a fixed finish line, we don't have a lot of room to play with the distance.
@JohnKalin Will see what we can do at flrunners... frankly I'd love to change it to 3K like FLYRA. However, am kind of in the same situation Ryan says they are in with their course in Miami. The course is kind of dictating the distance. Moving our start line up another 200 meters would create an even odder starting line for our middle school race. And since we're going around a lake and have a fixed finish line, we don't have a lot of room to play with the distance.
08/16/2011 10:20:53 AM
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Pre-State will definitely be staying at 2 Miles. Too early in the day and "season" to go any longer..
Pre-State will definitely be staying at 2 Miles. Too early in the day and "season" to go any longer..
08/16/2011 6:43:24 PM
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John, Thanks for pointing out that the FLYRA site needs to be updated. Will start working on that. Laura Fredrickson FLYRA FL MS State XC Championships Meet Director
John,
Thanks for pointing out that the FLYRA site needs to be updated. Will start working on that.
Laura Fredrickson
FLYRA
FL MS State XC Championships
Meet Director
08/16/2011 7:46:06 PM
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@LSFRED @Coach_Loth I think you guys are misunderstanding. I think he is saying flyra is doing it right and i think it is. 3k is what it should be for middle school... A metric distance that is in line with what that age froup is running in aau and usatf
@LSFRED @Coach_Loth

I think you guys are misunderstanding. I think he is saying flyra is doing it right and i think it is. 3k is what it should be for middle school... A metric distance that is in line with what that age froup is running in aau and usatf
08/16/2011 9:54:25 PM
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Thanks folks for those responses. Still hoping to hear from anyone with knowledge of current imperial running distances aside from the 2M holdout. I can see the 1M run, road and track, sticking around indefinitely. [quote=CoachRaposo]I'm not a fan of the metric measurements at all.[/quote] @CoachRaposo - hopefully Laura will see fit to let you announce those "1.86M" Championship events at MS State. :-p @jason - I'm a big fan of you going with 1500m and 3000m runs at the MS T&F State Meet, as well as the 3Km MS XC State. I'm giving you credit for these even if you claim it was someone else's idea. Hopefully, HS will switch from 1600m and 3200m to something the kids will be running after HS. Cool that MS is now ahead of HS in Florida. Apologies to Coach Raposo, but I'm a big fan of metric even though my odometer recently ticked over 60. As an elementary school urchin, I enjoyed the math challenge. Maybe our 1950's brains thought that cool metric stuff fit in with the space race and A-bombs. Jason, I do understand that certain venues (and lakes) make lengthening or shortening an event problematic. If you think that's tough, ask Coach Gowan what happens when a contractor begins building your school a 440y track instead of the required 400m facility. 8-o Thanks again to all, John
Thanks folks for those responses. Still hoping to hear from anyone with knowledge of current imperial running distances aside from the 2M holdout. I can see the 1M run, road and track, sticking around indefinitely.

CoachRaposo wrote:
I'm not a fan of the metric measurements at all.

@CoachRaposo - hopefully Laura will see fit to let you announce those "1.86M" Championship events at MS State.

@jason - I'm a big fan of you going with 1500m and 3000m runs at the MS T&F State Meet, as well as the 3Km MS XC State. I'm giving you credit for these even if you claim it was someone else's idea.
Hopefully, HS will switch from 1600m and 3200m to something the kids will be running after HS. Cool that MS is now ahead of HS in Florida. Apologies to Coach Raposo, but I'm a big fan of metric even though my odometer recently ticked over 60. As an elementary school urchin, I enjoyed the math challenge. Maybe our 1950's brains thought that cool metric stuff fit in with the space race and A-bombs.
Jason, I do understand that certain venues (and lakes) make lengthening or shortening an event problematic. If you think that's tough, ask Coach Gowan what happens when a contractor begins building your school a 440y track instead of the required 400m facility.
Thanks again to all,
John
08/16/2011 11:27:57 PM
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[quote=JohnKalin] @jason - I'm a big fan of you going with 1500m and 3000m runs at the MS T&F State Meet, as well as the 3Km MS XC State. I'm giving you credit for these even if you claim it was someone else's idea.[/quote] @JohnKalin Haha... well I'll take the credit (or blame... depending on who you ask) for both of those. I get people asking me all the time why the heck the middle school state meet (and regional qualifiers) run 1500 and 3000 when every other meet they compete in during the year is 1600 and 3200. I stick by that decision to be forward-thinking... I think it's the right direction to go. I certainly encouraged FLYRA to go with the 3K distance as well when they decided to add the XC Championship and the board approved it thankfully. [quote=JohnKalin]Hopefully, HS will switch from 1600m and 3200m to something the kids will be running after HS. Cool that MS is now ahead of HS in Florida. [/quote] :-) Don't hold your breath! I'll take another shot at the geography to try to get flrunners.com Invitational to a 3K distance. If anyone has any ideas on a workable layout let me know!
JohnKalin wrote:

@jason - I'm a big fan of you going with 1500m and 3000m runs at the MS T&F State Meet, as well as the 3Km MS XC State. I'm giving you credit for these even if you claim it was someone else's idea.


@JohnKalin Haha... well I'll take the credit (or blame... depending on who you ask) for both of those. I get people asking me all the time why the heck the middle school state meet (and regional qualifiers) run 1500 and 3000 when every other meet they compete in during the year is 1600 and 3200. I stick by that decision to be forward-thinking... I think it's the right direction to go. I certainly encouraged FLYRA to go with the 3K distance as well when they decided to add the XC Championship and the board approved it thankfully.

JohnKalin wrote:
Hopefully, HS will switch from 1600m and 3200m to something the kids will be running after HS. Cool that MS is now ahead of HS in Florida.

Don't hold your breath!

I'll take another shot at the geography to try to get flrunners.com Invitational to a 3K distance. If anyone has any ideas on a workable layout let me know!
08/16/2011 11:44:52 PM
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DOWN WITH THE METRIC SYSTEM!! http://www.berkleypost374.org/files/th_AmericanWavingFlag.gif
DOWN WITH THE METRIC SYSTEM!!

08/17/2011 8:31:45 AM
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I'll take another shot at the geography to try to get flrunners.com Invitational to a 3K distance. If anyone has any ideas on a workable layout let me know![/quote] @jason Start line stays the same but straighten out 'the horseshoe' and head towards the bus parking area, loop around the field and head back through 'alligator alley' then over the bridge and finish like the 5k course. http://cache.milesplit.com/user_files/95637/flrunnersms3k.jpg
I'll take another shot at the geography to try to get flrunners.com Invitational to a 3K distance. If anyone has any ideas on a workable layout let me know!

@jason

Start line stays the same but straighten out 'the horseshoe' and head towards the bus parking area, loop around the field and head back through 'alligator alley' then over the bridge and finish like the 5k course.

08/17/2011 11:09:25 AM
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FLYRA adopted the 3000m distance on Jason's recommendation. While I recognize that having uniform distances makes it easier to compare performances from different courses, personally, what I would most like to see throughout the State is good permenant "classic" courses that stand the test of time-- whether they are 1.86, 2 miles, 2.1, whatever. I have no problem with Larry and Penny being 2.1 miles-- as long as its the same 2.1 miles that every Dade County kid runs year to year. I will add one caveat, whatever distance these courses are, I would want them to be accurately measured and marked. To me one of the nice distinguishing features of Cross Country (as opposed to Track and Field) is the variety of courses.
FLYRA adopted the 3000m distance on Jason's recommendation. While I recognize that having uniform distances makes it easier to compare performances from different courses, personally, what I would most like to see throughout the State is good permenant "classic" courses that stand the test of time-- whether they are 1.86, 2 miles, 2.1, whatever. I have no problem with Larry and Penny being 2.1 miles-- as long as its the same 2.1 miles that every Dade County kid runs year to year. I will add one caveat, whatever distance these courses are, I would want them to be accurately measured and marked. To me one of the nice distinguishing features of Cross Country (as opposed to Track and Field) is the variety of courses.
08/19/2011 9:29:20 AM
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Haven't scoured all 50 states yet. But I quickly found [url=http://imsccc.com/]this[/url] for Indiana. "[i]11th Annual Indiana Middle School Cross Country Championship[/i]" appears to have always been a 3Km. From their site: "[i]The largest Middle School CC Meet in America! Four Varsity races contested as Big School and Small School divisions, two Junior Varsity races, and a combined Grades 3-4-5 race. ... All middle school races are 3000 meters. The grades 3-4-5 race is 2000 meters. ... This event is sanctioned by and insured by USA Track & Field. ... Since 2002, the Indiana Middle School Cross Country Championship has been sponsored by the wonderful people at Panera Bread[/i]" @jason @LSFRED - This event appears worth some analysis. @Coach Raposo, even though those yankee races are metric, the results still show pace as ... wait for it ... [b]Minutes Per Mile[/b]! Insert Old Glory image here. John Kalin [url=http://www.tallahasseetrails.com/Cross-Country-Course-Maps]Cross Country Course Maps & Photo Tours[/url]
Haven't scoured all 50 states yet.
But I quickly found this for Indiana. "11th Annual Indiana Middle School Cross Country Championship" appears to have always been a 3Km. From their site: "The largest Middle School CC Meet in America! Four Varsity races contested as Big School and Small School divisions, two Junior Varsity races, and a combined Grades 3-4-5 race. ... All middle school races are 3000 meters. The grades 3-4-5 race is 2000 meters. ... This event is sanctioned by and insured by USA Track & Field. ... Since 2002, the Indiana Middle School Cross Country Championship has been sponsored by the wonderful people at Panera Bread"
@jason @LSFRED - This event appears worth some analysis.
@Coach Raposo, even though those yankee races are metric, the results still show pace as ... wait for it ... Minutes Per Mile! Insert Old Glory image here.
John Kalin
Cross Country Course Maps & Photo Tours

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